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6:36 PM | 
Posted by
kender
A tale full of questions. A tale of foiled terrorists. A tale of the french and their (occcassionally) wonderful justice system.
Of course the questions I bring up will most likely be hotly contested and outright attacked by those sympathetic to the lilypad and maybe even those that reside there, but we will bomb that bridge when we fly over it.
Some selected bits from this story. Along with my comments.
PARIS - A French court convicted six men Tuesday in an alleged plot inspired by al-Qaida to send a suicide bomber into the U.S. Embassy in Paris, closing a six-week trial that shed light on the spread of Islamic radicals in Europe.
Now did we see this coming or what? Will you folks on the other side of the pond please listen to us and see the danger you are in now? Or will you continue or appeasing ways hoping that these guys will leave you alone. I know, you're gonna point out that the target was the American embassy. Do you think that no french people work there? Or do you think that they get what they deserve for working for the evil Americans?
All six were convicted of "criminal association in relation with a terrorist enterprise," a charge commonly used in terrorism cases in France that, because of its sweeping nature, can facilitate conviction.
Hhhmmm..."criminal association in relation with a terrorist enterprise"...sounds like a sweeping charge to me, as if anything you wanted to make stick could, even something as simple as being related to a terrorist.
"Proof, we have none. There are no documents, no conversation," said Beghal's lawyer, Jean-Alain Michel. He denounced the trial as a "judicial parody."
Where is all that peaceful french outrage? They sure bitch loudly enough about Gitmo, but now the french are jailing terrorist scum without "documents" or even "conversation". Sounds like a railroading to me.
However, the prosecution argued that Beghal was part of a web of Islamic militants stretching across five European countries with the center of gravity in Afghanistan.
See? At least some of the french authorities are getting it. They are recognizing how widespread the threat is, and acting on it. I daresay that this may be one of the reasons that france did send soldiers to Afghanistan, as they realized the need, given the next bit.
The investigation was opened Sept. 10, 2001, a day before the terror attacks on the United States, and revealed what amounts to a new generation of Islamic militants in France, distinct from Algerian Islamic insurgents responsible for deadly Paris bombings in the mid-1990s.
Maybe now the french will realize what America realized on 9-11 and the Dutch realized after Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered in the street, namely that there can be no quarter with these dogs, they are rabid and must be killed. Actually now that the french have convicted these guys they had better watch out.....these guys hate having their cohorts locked up.
"This affair is revelatory of a Europeanization of terror groups," prosecutor Christophe Teissier said in his six-hour closing arguments.
Something we have been saying for awhile now.
In a separate case, involving support for Muslim Chechen rebels, police Tuesday arrested two suspects for a reported plan to attack Russian targets in France, judicial officials said.
Does anyone remember how the russians handled these guys in Afghanistan? They kidnapped them and killed them, mutilating their bodies in embarrassing ways and tossed them on the streets. How do you think they will handle them now? Do you think perhaps the russians are more "enlightened" these days and will hunt them down and arrest them? Don't bet your rubles on that.
Some 20 people are under investigation in the Chechen case, most arrested in late 2002. The new arrests were made in Grenoble and the Lyon suburb of Venissieux, home to four members of a single family implicated in the plot, the officials said.
They are living amongst you. Heed that warning. Or not. If you don't we won't want to hear you crying about it ok?
The Paris trial largely hinged on a confession by Beghal to authorities in the United Arab Emirates after his July 2001 arrest. However, he retracted the confession after his extradition to France in September 2001, and testified that it had been extracted through torture that included the insertion of instruments like knitting needles into his genitals.
I want to know who (allegedly) tortured him? Maybe they called in the US military eh?
The French probe revealed a web of suspect relations that included Abu Qatada, the London-based radical Muslim cleric described by British officials as Osama bin Laden's "spiritual ambassador in Europe."
Why is this guy still walking around free? Why is he NOT jailed? Why is he even alive?
Wake up frenchy...they are among you, plotting against freedom and they aren't gonna stop with us. You too are an enemy of islam, simply because you aren't of them.
Now who is the racist eh?
Of course the questions I bring up will most likely be hotly contested and outright attacked by those sympathetic to the lilypad and maybe even those that reside there, but we will bomb that bridge when we fly over it.
Some selected bits from this story. Along with my comments.
PARIS - A French court convicted six men Tuesday in an alleged plot inspired by al-Qaida to send a suicide bomber into the U.S. Embassy in Paris, closing a six-week trial that shed light on the spread of Islamic radicals in Europe.
Now did we see this coming or what? Will you folks on the other side of the pond please listen to us and see the danger you are in now? Or will you continue or appeasing ways hoping that these guys will leave you alone. I know, you're gonna point out that the target was the American embassy. Do you think that no french people work there? Or do you think that they get what they deserve for working for the evil Americans?
All six were convicted of "criminal association in relation with a terrorist enterprise," a charge commonly used in terrorism cases in France that, because of its sweeping nature, can facilitate conviction.
Hhhmmm..."criminal association in relation with a terrorist enterprise"...sounds like a sweeping charge to me, as if anything you wanted to make stick could, even something as simple as being related to a terrorist.
"Proof, we have none. There are no documents, no conversation," said Beghal's lawyer, Jean-Alain Michel. He denounced the trial as a "judicial parody."
Where is all that peaceful french outrage? They sure bitch loudly enough about Gitmo, but now the french are jailing terrorist scum without "documents" or even "conversation". Sounds like a railroading to me.
However, the prosecution argued that Beghal was part of a web of Islamic militants stretching across five European countries with the center of gravity in Afghanistan.
See? At least some of the french authorities are getting it. They are recognizing how widespread the threat is, and acting on it. I daresay that this may be one of the reasons that france did send soldiers to Afghanistan, as they realized the need, given the next bit.
The investigation was opened Sept. 10, 2001, a day before the terror attacks on the United States, and revealed what amounts to a new generation of Islamic militants in France, distinct from Algerian Islamic insurgents responsible for deadly Paris bombings in the mid-1990s.
Maybe now the french will realize what America realized on 9-11 and the Dutch realized after Theo Van Gogh was brutally murdered in the street, namely that there can be no quarter with these dogs, they are rabid and must be killed. Actually now that the french have convicted these guys they had better watch out.....these guys hate having their cohorts locked up.
"This affair is revelatory of a Europeanization of terror groups," prosecutor Christophe Teissier said in his six-hour closing arguments.
Something we have been saying for awhile now.
In a separate case, involving support for Muslim Chechen rebels, police Tuesday arrested two suspects for a reported plan to attack Russian targets in France, judicial officials said.
Does anyone remember how the russians handled these guys in Afghanistan? They kidnapped them and killed them, mutilating their bodies in embarrassing ways and tossed them on the streets. How do you think they will handle them now? Do you think perhaps the russians are more "enlightened" these days and will hunt them down and arrest them? Don't bet your rubles on that.
Some 20 people are under investigation in the Chechen case, most arrested in late 2002. The new arrests were made in Grenoble and the Lyon suburb of Venissieux, home to four members of a single family implicated in the plot, the officials said.
They are living amongst you. Heed that warning. Or not. If you don't we won't want to hear you crying about it ok?
The Paris trial largely hinged on a confession by Beghal to authorities in the United Arab Emirates after his July 2001 arrest. However, he retracted the confession after his extradition to France in September 2001, and testified that it had been extracted through torture that included the insertion of instruments like knitting needles into his genitals.
I want to know who (allegedly) tortured him? Maybe they called in the US military eh?
The French probe revealed a web of suspect relations that included Abu Qatada, the London-based radical Muslim cleric described by British officials as Osama bin Laden's "spiritual ambassador in Europe."
Why is this guy still walking around free? Why is he NOT jailed? Why is he even alive?
Wake up frenchy...they are among you, plotting against freedom and they aren't gonna stop with us. You too are an enemy of islam, simply because you aren't of them.
Now who is the racist eh?
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22 comments:
I heard someone on TV the other day defending aposition that I had taken quite some time ago. The statement that Isalam is a "Religion of Peace" is true. As long as you are a muslim. If you are an infidel you are to be destroyed.
Once we get that, we will be able to stop the jihadists in their bloody tracks.
Dead on right....wow, I can't believe I didn't see that. It IS a religion of peace so laong as you are a muslim, especially one living under Sharia law.
Dead on right, as always, RG.
Two comments. First - did anyone else squirm in their seat and feel like crossing their legs protectively when they read the sentence: "insertion of instruments like knitting needles into his genitals"?
Second - what is your solution? Genocide? Should we wipe out anyone who is muslim? Exterminate any trace that the religion ever existed? Maybe we should make them wear some sort of symbol so we can identify them all on sight? C'mon - solutions...not complaints! Otherwise, you're just a whiner.
My solution is to--yes--identify all Muslims living in America. Profile them and watch them and keep tabs on them. If they're not doing anything wrong then they have nothing to worry about. What's your solution?
So then you would be okay with raising taxes to pay for a program that could monitor "all Muslims living in America"? All 1.5 million (or so) of them? Aside from this being completely unconstitutional, illegal, and un-American (remember, one main reason to come here was freedom from religious persecution) it would be extremely expensive. How long would you continue to do this? Indefinitly?
I don't really have to provide a solution, because I wasn't complaining about the problem, but I will anyway. Take some of the massive amounts of money that we're pouring into programs like missle defense and offensive operations (double meaning there...get it?!) and put it towards something which will be definitly productive instead of these operations that are possibly, someday, maybe productive. Increase the number and support for our first responders, police and firemen. Dramtically increase the protection of our borders. This includes better security not only at our airports (which is still a total joke), but also at our northern and southern land borders, our shipping/naval borders, and our coastlines. Keep better track of all illegal and legal immegrants who come here until they become full citizens.
And yes, if it would take some increase in taxes to make these programs work, then I would be in favor of it. As many people of a conservative bent (who complain about taxes the most) like to say: "Freedom isn't free."
Solutions? Ok. Have them register their religious affiliation. Track their finances and communications (by global region). Identify patterns. For example as part or the Income Tax filing process, identify a larger sampling of muslims for audits to verify they have legit finances. Of course, they would start lying about reigious affiliation at that point, so we would need to profile by ethnicity. I have no problem with that. Monitor all communications to known terrorist havens and websites, trackback to cell phone numbers, home phone numbers, and Internet accounts.
Deport people with known ties to terrorists, where necessary. If they break the law (felony) then get rid of them, don't give them a second chance.
Remove Islam as a recognized "outreach" religion. In other words, deny mullahs access to our prisons, where we know they are actively recruiting allies. Audit to the penny all monies distributed by muslim "charities".
Hold all Islamic institutions in this country to a higher standard of accountability regarding their financial disbursements, etc.
There is a war going on, one that may last through the lifetimes of our children.
No one who would deny freedom to others should be allowed to partake of the spoils of it in our country.
Another way to be prepared it to teach our children the truth about islam. Teach them vigilance and what it means to live in our great country. Teach them to keep their bodies strong and thier intellect sharp. Teach them to question authority and the press. Teach them that if threatened, to be ready to act. Teach them that there may be a time when they have to risk their lives to defend the lives of their families and loved ones, not just in the military but in large crowds, in public places. Teach them right and wrong and instill in them the courage of their convictions to act on that knowledge. Teach them to be Americans. Old school.
Sorry for the rant.
Peace through Victory.
Krafty, of course I would support raising taxes to keep the country safe from an attack...Maybe that's our difference? I say keep attacks away at all costs and you say allow attacks to happen then help clean up after?
I'm not sure how many of my rights or someone else's rights I'm willing to just give up. I see nothing wrong with profiling; in the case of terrorists it's not 'racist' it's a "description". If there are connections--to Hezbollah, Hamas, PLO or whatever, it's time to get them OUT! We should be erring on the side of caution and not allowing them to film our bridges or take pictures of our nuclear plants!
If they're visitors, they should be deported, IMO...if there's enough evidence, they should be jailed. This is serious stuff that's happening these people aren't planning birthday parties, they're stealing planes and fuel trucks and inquiring about the same ingredients used in the OK City bombing.
Nice find, Kender. Indeed the Europeans don't take kindly to terrorists in their midst, but love to complain about us. What do you expect.
Actually, the best thing we can do is to stay on the strategic offensive against the terrorists. It's a fools game to put all of our money into defense, because you can't stop all of them allof the time. And when or if they go truely 'round the bend in the DPRK we're going to need missile defense big time. It's not be accident that the Japanese are VERY interested in our technology right about now.
And I too am on board for profiling
*commenting from an unsecure computer
Tom the Redhunter
http://redhunter.blogspot.com
Hmmm...don't remember saying that we should "allow attacks to happen then help clean up after". Can you find the quote where I said that?
I do remember pointing out that I had some different ideas about how to go about being proactive in our approach. I also did not say that we absolutely should not attack other countries. I call the police and fire "first responders" because that is what they have been dubbed following 9-11, however, they have many other possible uses for preventing (especially police) terrorism if they are well staffed and funded. We can also prevent and catch a lot of terrorism through the strengthening of all of our borders and ports of entry and by tracking those in our country who are not yet citizens better. I would feel far safer as a U.S. citizen if these steps were being taken instead of (or at the least, in addition to) the current "tactics" being used.
Oh...and Redneck...you would have made an excellent Nazi.
Wow Krafty, you jumped right to the nazi comparison. I expected you to first go through a long diatribe about how great taxes were and the positive aspects of socialism, then post some more wordy, and out of historical context ramblings about religion, prove that you have no grasp of history, OR cause and effect, THEN go to the nazi comparison.
You went straight to the nazi part. Good for you! Lets see I'm like a Nazi, because the jews committed terrorist attacks against the Germans? And the Nazis were trying to defend their way of life? No, that can't be right. Hmmm...
Here is my question to you Krafty. All I am asking you is one question. Just one, smart guy.
How is what I posted like the nazis? You leftys like to pull that one out of the hat (usually as a last resort, so in reality you disappoint me). So explain it. Cite historical context please, I think everyone here has access to the Internet and can verify the facts that support your supposition.
If you can't back it up, feel free to retract it.
Or, if you prefer, enlighten us all,
Are you an idiot, or a moron? I forget.
Krafty, I never said that you said those things...I did ask if that is our difference:
You would prefer to see us get ready, be prepared for an attack, correct? Have the first responders ready ect? To me this means that you would rather focus on what happens AFTER an attack.
I prefer to try to dodge an attack and prevent one.
I'll reply to Raven first since I think it will be quicker.
Your analogy/example is a very good and accurate one: "I prefer to try to dodge an attack and prevent one."
Did you ever play dodgeball as a kid? I remember playing dodgeball a lot - fun game! The problem was that sometimes there would be a ball coming right toward you, so you would dive out of the way!...right into another ball that someone else threw...
Yes, I would like to see the first responders ready for WHEN another attack happens - its not a question of IF, just WHEN. Our own government has admitted that. But I would also like to see those same groups receiving extra training in how to prevent such attacks from happening. I'd like to see every precinct with a special terrorism detection/protection unit or something of that nature. The FBI cannot be everywhere and is sure to fail at some point. The local police ARE everywhere and could be even more effective if they had the training and support. This is what I mostly mean when I talk about preparing and training our first responders.
Raven, you are exactly right. One of the main differences between the far left and the right is the same difference between reactive and proactive.
Reactive (leftist) wait for an attack. They want our first responders to be able to care for the victims, hold them in their arms as they die, and tell them it will be ok. Then they want to use our tax dollars to hire grief counselors for the survivors, to tell them it wasn't their fault, and help them move on. They want public relations and marketing (press) to set people's expectations that we are going to be attacked, to just learn to accept it. They want to hire researchers and study groups to understnd why these groups hate us, and address those "concerns". They want to feed and clothe those people to appease them so maybe they won't try to hurt us anymore.
Proactive (right) wants to hunt down those that would try to destroy us and kill them with extreme prejudice.
One is action. One is inaction. One is driven by a position of weakness and uncertainlty, the other is driven by strength and conviction. One is driven by those that do not have the will to protect our nation from our attackers until after we have been attacked. The other is driven by those that put America's interests first.
Did anyone besides me notice that Kraftys first response included raising taxes? Amazing. And very very sad.
Peace through Victory.
RG
Dang, that last comment is a long one...who wrote that? Ah crap, it was me...
Sorry everyone.
Oh, and Redneck, try not to get too worked up about the differences between you and Nazis. I'm sure you are a decent person (most people are). I'm just trying to point out the dangers of the type of thinking you are engaging in.
Apologies to all for the length. But damn, somebody has to call him on this.
You can sum up his argument in one sentence:
"I'm right, because you are a nazi."
The idiocy of the left. Illustrated for you by Krafty.
Any time you disagree with someone, do a search and replace on key words and republish their words, albeit changed to support whatever evil you wish to compare it to. I love it.
I never get "worked up" about you Krafty. You aren't that worthy of an opponent. Kender can vouch for me, I have outlined the left's argumentative strategy with him several times. You fit the pattern every time. Always being correct is a burden, but I am proud to bear it.
It is truly amazing. Your substitutions lack historical context. They are arbitrary and the act of a ignorant coward that cannot back up his points. You started the nazi analogy, and when I asked you to explain it or retract it, you do a search and replace in a word processing program!
But the real truth Krafty, I am afraid, is much worse that even I could have imagined. You have really shown your true colors, and really the colors of those that think like you. Let me break it down, ok?
The logic here is that in order for the word replacements to be valid there must be some inherent belief by you that the substitutions are valid.
Otherwise they are merely a silly attempt to cast someone's views in an evil light. So I will explain the way you make yourself look by doing this....read it slowly, it may help your comprehension...
"muslims/muslim -> jews/jewish"
"Islam/Islamic -> Judaism/Jewish"
This being a valid substitution for you really concerns me. For you to equate the muslims of today and the crimes they commit in the name of their "religion" to Judaism, speaks worlds of your true nature. It also explains why the left has turned against Israel, and has thrown so much support behind the "cause" of the Palestinian terrorists. It also points to a tendancy towards historical revisionism that is usually reserved for racists and hate mongers. Truly amazing.
"terrorist -> jewish troublemaker"
Another disturbing substitution.
Jewish troublemakers I guess are like the victims of the "suicide bomber/freedom fighter" you guys on the left love so much. This comparison is beyond anti-semitic, and racist. This comparison alone puts you more in the camp of "nazi" than any of my arguments.
"American -> German"
This comparison troubles me as much or more than any. That you would consider it a reasonable substitution, not just America for Germany, but really more to your point of America for "Nazi Germany". That you would make that comparison/substitution so easily to disparage an argument you disagree with, that it would come so easily to your mind that you would put your name to it in a public forum, is shocking.
You definately don't understand what our country is about, nor the battle in which we are engaged.
You cannot show one instance of "Jewish Terrorism" toward the Nazis, to give your analogy any weight. At least not one documented in a mainstream history book.
That you think so little of your country should give you pause. That you understand so little of the actual evil perpetuated by nazi Germany that you feel it is analogous to America while our soldiers are dying for the right and freedoms of other people around the world is shocking. That you would use such comparisons in so minor a discussion points to well, a depravity in your logic and communication style.
You do not get under my skin Krafty. You arguments aren't sound enough for that. If anything I pity you, much as I pity many of those on the left, They hide behind their revisionism while reviling those that would defend this country against any that would attack it.
Peace through Victory
RG
"I'm just trying to point out the dangers of the type of thinking you are engaging in." - Me
This was the last point I made to you. You, like so many cocky people out there, didn't read for meaning and instead read based on your assumptions.
I will however take your point that, if misread, you could easily take my example as a direct correlation, which would definitly be offensive. There is, of course, by no means a direct correlation between the Jewish people (who, for most of history, have really just wanted to be left alone) and the Islamic culture. The comparison between America and pre-Nazi Germany is slightly more valid, but is still, by no means, a direct correlation.
You claimed to have access to Google and seemed to imply you knew something about that period in time, so I didn't feel I needed to explain to you exactly where the similarities lie, and instead was just trying to point out how racist your thinking is. I was obviously mistaken, so let me try again.
In pre-Nazi/post-WWI Germany, there was a lot of unrest. They were still trying to recover from the loss of WWI and the blow to the national pride of having no military, pay huge reparations, etc. They were a people who were afraid to lose thier way of life. Then, along came someone who was able to offer them a scapegoat - the Jews. Any problem that was faced in Germany, it was the Jews fault. Defeat at the hands of the enemy? Jewish influence in the military. Taxes too high? Its the rich Jews fault. Loss of pride? The Jews. Capitalism, Communism, Syphilis? All blamed on Jews. They were the scapegoat for all bad things happening in Germany. When you successfully demonize an entire group, people start believing that you can do anything to them because "they are not us". Anytime in history that this has been successfully achieved, it was always portrayed as being in the best interest of everyone else. We can profile "them" because they are not "us".
This is how evil, true evil, is perpetrated by people who would otherwise be totally opposed to it, and there will always be some people/person who will be willing to step up and take advantage of the fears they have created in you for their own purposes. First, you portray "them" as a group wholly different than "us". It then follows that "they" do not deserve the same treatment as "us". Of course, if "they" do not deserve the same treatment as "us" then it does not really matter what indignities we impose on "them" because they are not "us".
You have actively engaged in this thinking. It may only be the first step down this evil, slippery slope, but it is a step towards evil that many of us will not willingly take. You wish to scapegoat an entire religion and ethnic background because of your fear. American's like you have been deceived into thinking that if we could only get rid of/control the muslim/islamic people THEN we would be safe. Of course even if we achieved that through total genocide, it would only be a matter of time before we found another scapegoat for any problem we might have.
When you say something like this: "Of course, they would start lying about reigious affiliation at that point, so we would need to profile by ethnicity. I have no problem with that." then you have stated your willingness to walk that same path that was walked 70 years ago which led to so much evil.
At no point have I ever argued against our right to protect ourselves, but if let ourselves be led around by our fears, then we are no better than the people in nazi Germany who were willing to scapegoat an entire group. This is why the comparison is valid.
"I'm just trying to point out the dangers of the type of thinking you are engaging in." - Me
I don't need someone using invalid comparisons to Nazi Germany to point out anything.
I am also very aware of World History Krafty. Thanks for the refresher though.
You are hung up somehow on "us and them".
Let me explain. When the Jews were being killed by the Nazis, persecuted, hunted down, gathered up., and they were talking among themselves, do you think they ever referred to the Nazi's as "Them"?
Do you think when the Taliban was terrorizing Afghanistan, that the people that weren't part of the Taliban, ever referred to that group as "Them" and their group as "us"?
See any relationship between that and Nazi Germany? I hope not. Cause there isn't one.
So when I refer to a group of people, who’s primary objective, stated again and again in the press is to make our streets run red with the blood of our children, well, I hope you can see how being willing to defend against that has nothing AT ALL to do with Nazi Germany.
And since one of the common traits of these people that would kill us on sight is that they happen to all be muslim, and the majority NOT white anglo saxon gray haired women (you know, the kind the airport screeners like to strip search), I don't see a problem with holding that group to a different set of standards when they come to our country and want to enjoy our prosperity and the fruits of our freedom. The Jews were ALREADY in Germany. They didn't ATTACK the Germans. They were selected as a target because the Nazi government needed a scapegoat, just as you said.
I don't need a scapegoat, Krafty. America doesn't need a scapegoat. We know who killed us on the 9/11 attack. We know who bombed us in Beirut, who attacked the USS Cole, who attacked our Embassies.
We are not looking for a scapegoat; we are looking for the enemy. We will find this enemy and we will destroy him.
If you are unable to mentally grasp what I am saying, and how it has nothing to do with Nazi Germany, then you are a sad person indeed.
If you do get it, then I will ask you once again, retract your insinuation that I am a nazi. Don't be such an idiot.
Didn't insinuate that you are a Nazi. That would be quite mean, and actually, rather uncharacteristic of me. I implied that your willingness to lump an entire group together based on their physical features means that you would have been a good candidate for that group who also had that willingness.
Now, I totally agree with our airport security needing to get a little smarter about how they profile and search people. As Lewis Black said "We need to search people who can pull shit off." This means there is no need to thoroughly search the old ladies, the people in wheelchairs etc...
But we should be searching every male and most females who look like they could "pull shit off" regardless of race. Timothy McVeigh was as white as they come. So was the Shoe Bomber, whatever his name is. Terrorists are not necessarily of any race, creed, or color.
If I, as a young, fit, male am traveling alone, I would EXPECT to be searched well. I would be disappointed if I was not. I am willing to submit to this, because if that is what it takes to help our country be safer, then that is fine. But to start profiling just one ethnicity is to close your eyes to other dangers that will surely arise as soon as you do.
Anyway, its late, so I'll try to get to your other points later.
Having thought about it though, I did want to apologize though if my comment about you being a good Nazi candidate truly offended you. I was, as I said, just being blunt and controvertial for the sake of sparking the conversation and pointing out what I see to be historic similarities.
I do think that it is scary when people start talking as you did/do, because it calls to mind so many similarities from the beginning of that horrific time that I hope we will never encounter again.
What you call me being hung up on "us and them" is human nature. Everyone views themselves as part of some group(s) and everyone else as not part of it. The problem for me is when we start dehumanizing and devalueing the "thems".
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